Mar 8, 2018
In this episode, I am excited to have Jen Dawson on to talk about something we don't get the opportunity to candidly about: Money.
Jen Dawson is a Certified Financial Planner and is the Chicago Managing Director of Hemington Wealth Management. With over a decade of experience helping clients have a great relationship with their money, Jen has spent the last two years building a career where she spends 100% of her time helping lawyers turn their professional success into financial freedom. She finds these stressed-out, time-starved decision-makers especially appreciate the predictability and peace of mind that comes with a financial plan and outsourcing of all the detailed follow-up items. Jen's wealth management approach creates space and vulnerability for conversations about what's most important in life, and recognizes the importance of a holistic approach to financial well-being - it is not just about numbers. Jen formally works with lawyer clients with over a million dollars of liquid investments, but is passionate about helping lawyers of all levels have a better relationship with their money.
For more information on Jen, find her at the following links:
For more information, visit: jeenacho.com
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Jen Dawson: [00:00:02] How it kind of relates to mindfulness and balance in your life. Because if you drive yourself nuts at paying off student loans and don't enjoy life, then did you reach your goal? You know, I just think having that balanced approach is so important.
Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.
Jeena Cho: [00:00:40] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode I have Jen Dawson, who is a Certified Financial Planner. She's based in Chicago and the Managing Director of Hemington Wealth Management. With over a decade of experience helping clients have a great relationship with their money, Jen has spent the last two years building a career where she spends 100% of her time helping lawyers turn their professional success into financial freedom. She finds the stressed out, time-starved decision makers especially appropriate for the predictability and peace of mind that comes with financial plan, and outsourcing all the detailed follow-up items. I'm really excited about chatting with Jen and talking about probably something that we all think about, money, but we don't necessarily get a chance to talk all that much about.
[00:01:31] Before we get into the interview, just a reminder that Mindful Pause is now open for registration. So often I hear lawyers tell me that they know they should practice mindfulness and meditation, speaking of busy lawyers, but they just don't have the time. So I wanted to create a program that makes mindfulness really accessible and easy for lawyers to fit into their very busy schedule. There's just six minutes of daily practice for 31 days. You think about all the time you dedicate to others, don't you deserve at least .1 hour for yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the shownotes.
[00:02:15] And with that, here's Jen. Hello Jen, welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast.
Jen Dawson: [00:02:21] Hi there Jeena, thank you so much for having me.
Jeena Cho: [00:02:24] So let's just start by having you give us a 30 second introduction of who you are and what you do.
Jen Dawson: [00:02:31] Sure. So I am, like you mentioned, a Certified Financial Planner. So my firm, Hemington Wealth Management is based in D.C. and I'm the Managing Director of the Chicago office. And we help all types of people have a great relationship with our money. I joined the firm a little over a year ago, and one of the big attractions was that it really focuses on serving breadwinner women. And the founder, Eileen O'Connor, it just matches my philosophy on how to serve clients. And Hemington is the name of the firm, that's after the beach house that her family saved for, her parents. She was from a middle class family in D.C., they had nine kids. And every year they would take one vacation to the North Carolina Outer Banks, and they'd go past this big beach house and talk about, wouldn't it be so nice if we could all stay on the ocean together in a house like that?
[00:03:20] And her parents saved for 15 years and bought that. So the idea is, what is your Hemington? What is it that you really, really want in life, and how can we help you plan to get it? So that was right up my alley. And then you know my previous farm I'd been building out a practice group you know promotor how law firms have a tax bill for the states or real estate. I would focus on attorneys as clients and my approach was to interview over 100 attorneys in 2016 just ask them what are the top issues with your finances with your practice and in life. And I learned so many great lessons and I have loved working with the lawyer client that I have in the past.
[00:03:59] So when I was tasked with starting my own firm or my own business in Chicago I really decided OK I'm going to go all in on lawyers and I spent a hundred of my time in that arena and just naturally I am a Type A personality and a lot of my own Women Network is women lawyers. So I'm just a little bit of background about me.
Jeena Cho: [00:04:23] What are some of the surprising findings when you interviewed the lawyers.
Jen Dawson: [00:04:29] Well there was I think the understanding the lawyer brain just takes a lot of time and some time you know thick skin.
[00:04:39] The fact that naturally very skeptical people recover perfectionist running commentary in their heads that often there's not enough you know a lot of them hate numbers. And so when I start talking about financial topics they think you know it just gives them a pit in their stomach often oftentimes the lawyer and you talk about this in the anxious for it which I loved the book by the way that their issue fodder which makes them excellent attorneys but it's not necessarily the recipe for happiness in life.
[00:05:12] And so to help them think differently about life and their money is part of what I think is most important. What makes me most effective with working with lawyers. There are specific financial issues that they often face with lumpy cash flow or you know taxes and a lot of different states. Are Mandatory retirement. You know things like those those aspects of their finances that are very specific to lawyers. But I think understanding how they think and then of course the busyness that you mentioned earlier. Of course just an interesting relationship with time and how they think about you know six minute increments and so that busyness often turns into a neglect of their own personal finances. And it even can be an excuse to not address the you know underlying emotional issue behind their money and their potential things that are holding them back so those are the few things that I've learned and I love lawyers.
[00:06:14] And I am a perfectionist or trying to be a recovering perfectionist. And so I see a lot of those lawyer brain things and in my own mind. But I am not a lawyer. So yeah I appreciate you having me on the I can't fight that.
Jeena Cho: [00:06:31] What are some of the emotional issues that you see lawyers struggle in terms of money.
Jen Dawson: [00:06:37] Well I think certainly that idea of not enough and I would say that keeping up with the Joneses can be an issue for women.
[00:06:48] And and of course a lot of them are very high high earner but also high Ben-Dor. And so this lack of freedom the feeling that your stock can be a huge emotional issue and it can.
[00:07:04] One of my favorite interviews was with a therapist who specifically focuses on helping attorneys as a patient. And he talked about how it's still an old boys club and Big Boys Don't Cry.
[00:07:18] And if you say if you if you can't show vulnerability then it's really proper have intimacy and then it's really tough to be joyful and so that really resonated within some of the attorneys that I worked with and not wanting to show not wanting to ask questions you know about about money concept. And they are so sharp. But oftentimes the money stuff is not in their wheelhouse. And so having an adviser. And I think creating face for the right conversation that can get to the emotional issues is just of huge value for lawyers in particular.
Jeena Cho: [00:07:54] Yeah. You know I want to go back to that idea.
[00:07:58] Not enough to say I didn't have these conversations with lawyers and you know for the average American standard they're making a really good living but you know tell me like I'm just not making enough or so and so got a bigger bonus or some is brought in more clients and like there's this feeling of like I just have to continually film more produce more go and get more clients. But there's really no understanding about knowing what is enough. So how do you suggest declines in terms of like thinking about you know what is enough like is it you know like calculating it or even like backing into a number and like what does this look like in terms of figuring out you know what is kind of quiet enough.
Jen Dawson: [00:08:42] The great question and I love the Prophet as we go through with new clients which is and it's always been my style that my current firm is even more structured and our initial conversations with new clients we go through the seven different sections of questions and just make sure we're having the right conversation about you know what makes you feel best about your finances.
[00:09:05] What makes you feel worse. What are your first memories about money and how does that impact how you think you view money today. And you imagine we're sitting here in three years and looking back. What has that happened to be happy with progress and you know just big question that you can't answer if you're in a six minute interval mode and you need to step back and define what you really really want. And then and that's really that what you're what's your in conversation and then we can build a plan around that and show you what that looks like in numbers. And I think that level of predictability. And then holding people to what they've told us you know you said that this was enough you know and but you want more now. Have has had the goalpost change which is obviously absolutely fine. Is there financial future. Or are they getting caught up in that. Not enough or I need a Tesla. Right. You know what is it that.
[00:10:07] That's driving that feeling. The other thing I think is incredibly important for lawyers that they have control over their cash flow.
[00:10:17] And I'm thinking of one in particular that he said he spent about 20000 per month. And when we looked at OK what's coming and you know he made over a million and saved big chunks into some retirement accounts and paid a ton in taxes and saved some big numbers into a college and for the kids. And then if we back out the 240000 or what he thought he sent there was still about 150000.
[00:10:46] That was the difference. So he called this the where the f the money spreadsheet.
[00:10:53] And he would go through and like oh yeah we put in you know new flooring or we went on that big trip or we bought the car. And so inevitably he was funny more than he thought he was. Which is again if that's an intentional decision and if he's good with that that's fine but if it's going to effect when he wants to retire you know each year we were meeting he was pushing back retirement more and more and then again that's OK if it's a choice. But don't let it happen just because you let it go and didn't pay attention to it. So I think it's the answer to your question in a very long form. I would say it's defining specifically what you really really want which is often and especially for single people can be a really tough thing to answer. But then backing into it and otherwise and then having some accountability.
[00:11:48] No I get a long answer to your question
Jeena Cho: [00:11:50] Yeah yeah and makes a lot of sense.
[00:11:53] You know when you work with lawyers and you see the lawyers that are doing a good job of managing their money or I guess avoiding that anxiety that a lot of us have around money like what are you doing right.
Jen Dawson: [00:12:07] So I think it comes down to a few things. And I would lump it into a control over cash flow which I've talked a little bit about already. But what I often see with lawyers is either there's a fair scarcity of cash which is kind of what I spoke about just now or there's this feeling of each year you've got to start from zero and bringing in new revenue. And so there's this you know this.
[00:12:34] Internal worry that you're not going to be able to do what you did last year. And so you hoard cash I often either lawyers have very little cash out of retirement account or they have millions dollars of cash and are so worried about about what to do next.
[00:12:51] So just being and having control over cash I think is one of the things for lawyers who would be having clarity over what you want your money to do for you. We've talked about that a little bit. I think that people think traditionally that financial advisors will help them of course with retirement planning with college planning with investment estate planning taxes insurance and a comprehensive adviser we'll be talking about all those things. A lot of times lawyers only tackle those on an as needed basis for when they get an email from their firm like you want extra long term disability this year. And they're like do any Dustman. And it's not a strategic decision. I'm busy and they respond right away. So those things are definitely important to tackle. I also think the softer stuff like money values your kids your parents your career charitable giving. I think making sure that you're talking about those things with your adviser is incredibly important to have that clarity on what's most important. And the third thing that I would say is having confidence that your portfolio is going to support your plan. And a lot of that is did you. Are you hiring the right financial kind of financial advice. Are you paying the right amount. And there are some good resources for hiring an adviser and of course I'm biased because I'm an advisor. We're an independent the only firm which you can use NAPFA which is the National Association of Financial Planners and they will have fee only advisers you can search for or the CFP Certified Financial Planning website. But those are some good resources.
[00:14:33] And I always share that lawyers often will be targets for financial advisors because everybody knows that they have a good income. So I find that a lot of lawyers are using either insurance failed people as their advisers which is not necessarily bad but oftentimes the answer to every question is insurance is the bigger picture and the planning and the things that I'm talking about or they are using because they have a capital account with the big banks you know then they might be using them for their personal stuff and unless you have 10 million plus in assets with a big bank you might not be getting the kind of planning that you need. But that's where I really think the independent firms like Hannington are like another. The only firm can be a good solution for where they control over cash flow. Clarity over your financial plan and then competence in your portfolio is going to support the plan.
Jeena Cho: [00:15:34] Now I do. Bankruptcy laws I tend to see a lot of people who just like you have no idea how much money they're earning or how much money their spouses are earning. And I mean I don't know. You know like what is it about money and makes it so hard to even look at or have conversations about even though it's something that we all need. And you know it's one of the top reasons for why people get divorced. Yeah. Like what. What is it like why is it so hard to talk about or think about.
Jen Dawson: [00:16:08] I think because while I don't have the answer for that it's a tough one but I think so often it gets wrapped up into people's feeling of success how they define success. Our values can be so incredibly different. You know how you grew up has a huge impact on how you spend it how you make money decisions. And it's it's if you're coming from a not enough situation to you have more than enough. It's tough to meet in the middle and that's what you see in a lot of marriages I think. I also think it's incredibly important for everybody to be involved in the conversation. And so sometimes it's just a lack of communication that I'm not talking about the critical end. CONAN And I'm thinking about how I've helped lawyers clients having those critical conversations has been the number one thing and it's taking the time. You know lawyers don't want to take these aren't quick conversations you can have in a 15 minute setting.
[00:17:17] And then and then having the conversation guided to where it's uncomfortable and I think about meeting with a couple that had been married 40 years. And every time we met the horse came up like it was such a contentious his money versus versus her money. And it was just it was tough to be you know to manage the conversation and one day it came out of kind of out of nowhere we were trying to talk about retirement accounts versus the cash accounts. And it came out that her biggest concern was that there were people in his family that had suffered from Alzheimer's and you're worried about what was going to happen if he's in a right mind. But if something should happen to his health and he's not in his right mind and he's making bad decisions then she felt totally vulnerable to that situation is totally at risk. And so that's the issue. It wasn't their marriage it wasn't his actions that had done anything. So we were able to ease her mind on that by having her power of attorney over his IRAs. And so it's it's just one example of. Where.
[00:18:33] You know the actual issue wasn't obvious. You got you've got to keep talking and communicating and being vulnerable
Jeena Cho: [00:18:43] Yeah you know and it's certainly not easy.
[00:18:46] And you know I didn't really think about sort of my money story until fairly recently and I sort of realized my money story was just that we just don't spend. You know it's just like that we just save and save and save and we just don't spend. And what it's like oh that's not a strategy here. We need this sort of guideline about like what we're going to spend money on and what are the things that are really important. I like my husband. I actually sat down and counted the name of the program but it actually allowed us to like connect all of our bank accounts and our student loans and all of our credit cards until like this one. The Web site so all you have to do is just log in and like instantly I get a snapshot of like exactly how much money we have exactly how much that we have and it was so refreshing. I was like Wow. And it's so funny because like I you know deal with money and finances all the time. But it was just this was like this sense of like restriction. I don't know you know it's just not like I have a good strategy. The strategy is just to not spend and we're like No because like me we enjoy going and that's important to us. So let's like allocate a certain amount that we're going to spend on occasion and know like we like and we're not only like material people like we're much more experienced people. So that's kind of good for us to even have a discussion about and say like OK like what.
[00:20:03] You know like we all aspire to have you know big fancy houses or anything but like we do want to go on vacation have these wonderful experience. So then I really feel like it made her marriage stronger and better and it's not like once and done cent Dunnigan that's the other thing. It's like you just have these conversations once. Check it off the box and never be worried about it. It's like a continual conversation. And now we kind of not like on a regular schedule thing but we do tend to kind of sit down and have money date nights where we look at our finances and yeah it was it wasn't easy but I'm so glad. Now that's just like part of what we do.
Jen Dawson: [00:20:43] Oh it is so god. That is perfect planning. And I I think for lawyers Type A personalities having regular money conversations like what you're describing and for my husband and I it worked once a year we sat down and talked about our net worth and tracking network have a lot of benefits because it is you versus your path.
[00:21:05] You know this is you versus anybody out and you can really celebrate your success and have those conversations. OK what do we want this to look like in 10 years. And your net worth is simply your assets less your liabilities or debt.
[00:21:21] But what you're describing is exactly what a plan can do because you're right it's not saving save and save. In the beginning it often is right when you were in the early accumulation phase is kind of boring save as much as you can pay off her student loan at a certain point when you have wealth accumulated then it ok what what's this work. You know what are we doing with this. And my my favorite conversations with clients are the one of course because it's a much easier conversation that are naturally not spenders and they need to be encouraged to enjoy their wealth whether the taking trips that inspire them or gifting to grandkids or whatever that is. So I just I think that's a perfect story of Perfect Money story that a lot of people can learn from the other story that comes to mind as a client that I recently worked with who talked about how one of her maintained one of her goal was to be her vacation personality more because you wouldn't love your husband.
[00:22:32] But I was really I know exactly what you mean. Vacation Jen is fabulous she's so hot. And so we did her plan and she'd been at you know partner a big law firm for like lot Ivan the scenarios were stay where she did go in a house and take a lower salary. But all the talk about other benefits that comes from that and you know some other freedoms that she'd have or go a non-profit route that we ran different you know money scenarios to show what those looked like. And she had the flexibility to do it and still build an 20000 dollar vacation every year. You know and that's important to them to know the power of a plan is just I think incredible and especially driven people like lawyers. Think they can be powerful and just give you such peace of mind and you know be tools to help have a conversation like you and your husband had.
Jeena Cho: [00:23:30] Yeah you think part of the reason I subscribe to just that like Save save save mentality against it is just like saying and pay off the student loan and that's it. So it's not like you get to pay off your student loan like a year or two.
[00:23:46] It's like a long term process is like OK like I'm not planning on the next. It's like a 25 year repayment plan like well I cannot. It's sort of like suspending life and putting it on hold and just so we can get out of. I don't know. And it was just like the kind of deal like a balancing test and say well like me you need to have both dignity to get out of debt. Yes. But we also need to enjoy life and meanwhile I said it was like a really helpful conversation. Have.
Jen Dawson: [00:24:15] Well I love that is how it kind of relates to mindfulness balance in your life because you're right. If you drive yourself not that paying off student loans and don't enjoy life then will OK if if you shorten your pay off from 25 to 15 years. But like if you had 15 years. Your life when you look back that you didn't enjoy then did you reach your goal you know. And I just think having that balanced approach is so important. And what might be best from a numbers perspective might not work in real life though. You've got to have that balance.
[00:24:53] Yeah I think that's an important point to emphasize that you know finding something that works for you it doesn't have to work for everybody else but something that's going to work for you and your family. And so Kim and I can easily see someone looking at our young budget and be like oh my gosh you guys have so much money allocated for education. You should just pay it to your student loan. But it's it's there's like a quality of life issue and you know there are perhaps other places where we can spend less on clothing or on furniture stuff.
Jen Dawson: [00:25:27] Right. Right. Yeah.
Jeena Cho: [00:25:30] And say know you work allied with a breadwinner. Women you know Lincoln what are some things that you've learned by working with this particular group women lawyers.
Jen Dawson: [00:25:42] Sure. So I'm very excited that we're doing a study about women lawyers and expanding upon the research that we've gleaned from just the traditional breadwinner women which we define because the love people that define it as 25 percent or more of the family's income to be a breadwinner woman. So what she makes when what she makes matters is another way to think about it matters to the family it would be a big drastic impact if she wasn't bringing in that salary. So we started the Women Lawyers study because my hypothesis was that women lawyers are even more often the breadwinners for their family they are stretched even thinner than the average breadwinner woman. And they often are getting because they're the targets for a lot of financial advice whether it be insurance or big banks. I mentioned earlier in getting in my opinion the wrong kind of advice wrong kind of financial advice and often feel even more confident about their money. And then the final piece was this lack of fulfillment that kept coming up in my conversations and interviews with women lawyers. Which is kind of a Debbie Downer topic but I felt like. Can I come at this from a way to try to help women lawyers for women that are happy in their career. What are they doing. And so I'm really excited about this but it is still open on having good Web sites. If you're interested in taking it we're specifically looking for people to take it on the west coast. So it covered but you know Oregon Washington Idaho Montana.
[00:27:21] So if anybody is listening from those states would love to have your input. But we have found interest basically everything my hypotheses are coming true. The career fulfillment piece I think is one of the most interesting. About 30 percent of women answered that they wouldn't go if they could go back in time they wouldn't go back to law school. Over 80 percent of women have experienced gender biases in the work in the workplace which again not to be a Debbie Downer but. When I looked at it from the opposite angle for women that are loving what they're doing. The number one thing that they're answering that. What has worked for them is mentors and mentees which I don't think is surprising the importance of having somebody in your life that cares about your career trajectory. But number two was a surprise. And if the yoga or meditation. So that was the number two thing for women lawyers who love their job. And those that resonated with me because I'm a big believer. Love your book. I love the power of getting outside of your own head or were getting more in your head when you look at it. And so I'm excited about finding women lawyers are incredibly stretched thin and I mean the average hours 56 versus 48 for the average breadwinner woman but 17 days per year. And I've had people say that seems low. Six hours a week. So I of the preliminary data that interesting and I've been sharing it with women group in Chicago. Which we talk about the social pension the financial decision making and career fulfillment within the three topics that are most interesting to women's group.
[00:29:17] I could go on and on about the study there.
Jeena Cho: [00:29:22] When do you think you'll be publishing the results.
Jen Dawson: [00:29:26] We are going to stop taking responses on the survey on June 1st and then the second half of this year we'll have the results published.
Jeena Cho: [00:29:38] Wonderful news for the listeners out there. I like now you don't.
[00:29:43] I guess there's two different questions one might be the they. Well I mean I don't need a financial adviser. Be Tracy hear your thoughts on that. It's like well you know I get a 401k from my firm and I invest in that and you know I'm managing my money. Why do they need it. Does everyone need a financial adviser. MAIZES my first question is just possibly asking my second question.
Jen Dawson: [00:30:07] Okay sure. No it's a great question. And how I tell people if you have. That time the expertise and the interest in doing it yourself with the time talent and interest in doing it yourself then you should. Lawyers especially at the time that often get in away or they're not. This isn't their expertise. And so that's one way to think about it even you know if you have Pendley dollars and you have the time the talent and the interest then you should do it yourself. You can argue that people make bad decisions when they're with their own money has emotion as tied to it so happily. But. I want to answer your question about I'm saving my 401k and my situation is pretty simple. And so. I've come up with a guide for lawyers on when I went to hire an ad about how much hey. Her financial advice and. I really think once you're over a million dollar of investable assets. Then your situation is typically. Not a level of complexity where you can have a lot of value added by higher and it's financial advisor when you have just 150000 in for one day and end the student loan payoff is what you're really focused on. You probably don't need an adviser at that stage. I think there's huge value in meeting with. Somebody like myself a CFP. You know in your early 30s. To make sure you have a vision for how much I need to save how am I going to get out of the accumulation phase. To the point where I have the wealth.
[00:31:52] To think about more than just OK sock away as much as I can. And so I have different milestones but there it is. There's no magic answer. Don't one to hire. I think that somebody that has a million dollars of investable assets which I think of as 401k. Brokerage accounts cash accounts. You know liquid investments. Typically. It makes sense for them to be focused on their estate plan making sure they have the right amount of life insurance disability umbrella insurance. Could they be saving money in their taxes. To which investments to have in your retirement account versus just a brokerage account. Tax on harvesting your portfolio. So. There are. Value add and the accountability piece. That an advisor can add. Huge value in my opinion. Again I'm biased. And in the behavioral coaching would be a final thing. That Vanguard did as they had in 2014 on the value of a financial advisor. And it was a percent and a half to 3 percent per year. I believe what they came up with and have an adviser because the average investor is terrible. Because investing is counterintuitive when it feel good is when you should be selling when it feels bad is when you should be buying and nobody wants to do those things and no working with somebody that's going to protect you from your SO. Is maybe the biggest value that there is. So I think that certainly you know word of mouth if you talk to people that you trust.
[00:33:34] And they have recommendations that's one way. I mentioned earlier the CFP website knap will lead you to the only advisors where you can interview them and when you're looking to hire you certainly I mean there's resources that are like 10 questions ask a financial advisor and make sure that you understand how they're compensated.
[00:33:56] And what their breadth of services are. And. In the end you need to trust that this person get you and that I would tell you to help people. Are they asking the questions beyond just financial. Are they talking about your values about. Your aging parents about what you want your career to look like in 10 years. You know are they making sure that this isn't just about. What did the S&P do last year versus my portfolio. You know is it a broader conversation. And so those would be my words the wisdom and in the end it be somebody you. Trust and Believe. Gets you and understands what you're looking for in the long run.
Jeena Cho: [00:34:42] Unprinted advice Jennifer the people that want to learn more about you and your services what's the best place to do the.
Jen Dawson: [00:34:51] So. Our Web site though Headington. And then there specifically to a women of wealth. Section of our Web site Penington W.M.. So as been wealth management dark. And then certainly there's my contact information on our Web site. Feel free to e-mail or give me a call. I also have a in addition to the women lawyer study I have a monthly newsletter. It's a collection of wisdom for the happy warrior. If you're interested receiving that. Just hanging with an email and then in a Chicago land area I've been doing a lot of feelie presentations for big firms. About you know either money mindfulness or making it rain.
[00:35:38] Part of my job is development by naturally lawyers are often very hungry for that topic and so I can share what has worked well for me and I love working with a business development coach and so she has given me free reign to share her with Dom as my own. It is fun to share because it essentially being a rainmaker bringing in your own revenue is going to give you financial freedom and so it is a topic of conversation when it comes to your money.
Jeena Cho: [00:36:10] Well one last question before I let you go, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?
Jen Dawson: [00:36:18] I would say that the resilient lawyer is an expert of having self-compassion, and has de-linked how they define self-worth and success with their status at work, their hours, or their pay. Along the lines of what you said earlier, I think that often the resilient lawyer values people and relationships and experiences over things and status. And they often still feel the reason that they got into law applies to their daily life now, and have that as the core of what they do.
Jeena Cho: [00:36:57] Yeah, makes a ton of sense. And I love the self-compassion part. Well Jen, thank you so much for joining me today. It was so delightful to have you.
Jen Dawson: [00:37:06] Thanks for having me, I'm honored and I love lawyers and this was a fun conversation. Thank you.
Closing: [00:37:18] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at firstname.lastname@example.org. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.